Hey Leeyen. Thank you so much for joining me today. Super excited to have you here. How you doing?
Great. Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, it's a real privilege and honor to have you guys here. You're doing some pretty amazing things and we'll talk about your company here in a second, but maybe explain, you know, how JotForm got started, when it was founded, what you guys are doing uniquely in the marketplace. Just give us a lay of the land.
Sure. So JotForm was founded in 2006 by Aytekin Tank and he was a software engineer at the time and he found that he wanted a tool to use for his own purpose. So he found that at work it was quite time consuming and also pretty tedious and uninteresting to create forms from scratch to code them out, so he build out JotForm, which was the first Wysiwyg, "what you see is what you get" form builder of its time back in 2006 and there's been a lot of growth and innovation since. So now we can say that we are the first and the only full featured online form builder that is 100 percent mobile friendly both from the user side as well as the end user side.
That is fantastic. It's amazing. What about the customer base? Are you mostly dealing with SMBs, Enterprise? What's that look like?
Our customer base is incredibly broad and really ranges from small business to the enterprise. So we've really spanned so many different industries due to how versatile our tool is. Our tool is online forms. We're an online platform where people can easily build forms and collect data. So that's definitely something that all kinds of companies need everything from nonprofits to small businesses to higher ed. It really spans the whole spectrum.
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense and I guess real fast we'll get to the marketing challenges and stuff like that that you guys have, but I'm sure that maybe one of them having such a broad audience, but let's first take a step back. When did you join the team actually and maybe what was the customer side? So we get some idea of where the company was that.
I joined in 2014 when we were around 1.6 million users and I was at first marketing hire, so back in 2006 and up until the point that I joined, JotForm had a basically big success as far as organically getting new users from word of mouth and search. There was a lot of SEO benefit of being the first, but a lot of competitors started entering the space and we really wanted to level up. So I came on board as well as, you know, the marketing team as it stands to really differentiate ourselves and really speak to customers and do a lot of the marketing tasks that JotForm as a very engineering heavy team hadn't been doing.
Got It. Makes sense. Well, congratulations on all the stuff that you guys have been doing. We'll talk about where you guys have taken it, but you know, coming in, what is the big challenge that you have to take on, especially like you said, the marketing audience, so broad. How as a marketer, do you then approach the situation of seeing all these different industries and then start to think about like who's our persona? You know, most people when we talk about coming into a company, it's like a niche down persona. They have, you know, their buyer persona then the segments of it. How'd you figure this stuff out?
That's a great question and that was one of our biggest marketing challenges coming in fresh and what we did was a large segmentation process where we had to really look at our users and discover who they are, what industries they're from, how they're using JotForm, what types of forms are using, what kind of features are using. We really wanted to understand our users from the ground up because we hadn't previously done this sort of a segmentation process. So we looked at industries and we discovered just the breadth of the industry. We were operating under the assumption that a lot of our users were technical. When I joined in 2014, a lot of the language was more of a technical nature. It was pretty high level. It wasn't really clear or easy and it really wasn't geared towards that nontechnical user looking to dive right in.
So once we made a lot of those insights from analysis data analysis, as well as using our own product to conduct customer surveys as well as doing some user research, we came to the conclusion that only a small segment where technical users such as engineers or, or maybe designers who are looking to really speed up their process of what they do on a day to day basis. And we found that the vast majority of firms, user base is nontechnical users from all different industries as well as roles. So what it would look like is on a marketing team, there would be marketers using JotForm for lead generation forms and market research. Running contests, there's so many different creative ways to use the tool, but they didn't want to have to ask engineering or, or use any exterior resources to build this out for them. So this tool really empowers those nontechnical people to create a really powerful data collection solution without having to burden other teams or even slow down the process. Which is why JotForm is pretty popular with tech companies because tech companies of all industries and roles and startups are looking for a fast solution that is really effective that they don't have to have, say a three month lead time, in a matter of a couple of minutes you can have a fully functional form ready to go live and collecting information.
That's incredible. Does that mean it was a big shift to website languaging, you know, lead generation devices. It was kind of a whole revamp of all that once you realized who that audience actually was?
Yes. We actually did a complete rebrand. We had to really switch up and hone all of our messaging and positioning across the website. There was a lot of content there as far as how we talk to our users, what kind of things they're interested in hearing about and also it really affected and impacted our onboarding process and really all of our landing pages and all of our content. So we actually did a fun project of talking to our existing users and finding out how and why they're using JotForm. And after talking to them they found that they really love the product because it was fun and it was easy. However, that looking at the website at the time when I joined in 2014, you would not necessarily think easy because our interface, it looked pretty complex and perhaps a little bit intimidating to people and there was a little bit of ramp up time. But so when people first started using it, they discovered how much they loved it and how easy it was. But it's really important to capture those people right off the bat and have the visual look and feel match the actual product. So over the years we've really transformed the website to make it really easy and clear and you know, friendly to use, but we also made it clear that our product and our interface was just as fun and easy to use as the experience was. So, so that now matches.
That's awesome. Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense as simplicity and ease of use is so big, especially when you're dealing with the nontechnical audience. They want to know that there's not going to be any friction or headache when they get in. And so I guess from a marketing perspective, when you're doing these interviews, then you're really looking back at your product, what is your process to kind of translate, especially because you said you had an engineering heavy team to translate marketing objectives to product. Is there a process that you go through for, you know, maybe ideation and then prelaunch tp launch postlaunch?
Yes. Marketing and product and engineering work really closely together and we are really partners throughout the process of feature prioritization to building the feature, to refining the feature, to launching the feature. So everyone is actually involved in that whole process. So what it looks like is the initial research, so we may have certain hypotheses about what features and what new products we should be launching. Perhaps this comes from what we're hearing directly from customers. This could also come from requests from customers directly to the support team. It can come in behavioral features or behavioral insights that we're collecting and how people are using the platform. It can come from a lot of different sources, but once we have different ideas about what should be built, then we look into prioritizing those features and really looking at creating and refining that roadmap. So for instance, we had a pretty large feature launch this February. It was called JotForm cards and it was a, actually, it was a brand new format for our online platform.
So the way that marketing and product and engineering work together, that process was first we had to come up with the research and the data to support our wanting to create this feature because obviously a big undertaking like launching a brand new product requires a lot of resources from across teams. So we, we definitely need to make sure that everyone was on board and we wanted to make this a very careful decision. So a lot of the research that went into this was, not only user testing, discovering how people were using our product, how people were using our competitor's product and really analyzing that and comparing them and making sure that we were always, you know, maintaining it and still going to be the best. So we did a lot of customer research. We actually use our own tool quite a bit, both internally and externally to our users. So we gathered a lot of customer insights, with surveys. Really optimized surveys that we created with our tool. And then that led to a more targeted approach of finding specific people that we wanted to dive deeper into their mindset. So we conducted customer interviews that were recorded, we can refer to it and really, really understand their pain points and what they wanted next for JotForm, we spoke with a lot of power users that were really invested in our success. They may use JotForm every day on a weekly basis. It's really connected in their company, across teams. So for those people that are really invested in us, we spoke to them because they're the most familiar with JotForm and they probably have the best insights to help the company grow and help JotForm as a tool to become better.
So once we spoke with our customers, and this really goes back to how customer oriented we are, in fact, when you look at a lot of the features that we launched, those were prioritized because they were requested the most by our features. So we really listened and we really encourage our customers to reach out to us, let us know what you want, what new features, new integrations, and then we'll go ahead and start adding them. So after we did other research, then we determined a minimal viable product and we were testing that out and we actually were testing it on certain groups of people, whether they had been familiar with JotForm or not. So our prelaunch process actually took quite a few months and we were really refining all of those details throughout that time so that certain people could have the benefit of having early access to our new tool and in return we would get a lot of their feedback.
That's super smart. I love that. Yeah, that prelaunch process, you kind of do an agile approach. Real quick question before we go into like the launch process, when you're doing the organization and prioritization, are you weighting those power users over other segments? So like let's say you have 14 votes for x integration, but your power users had 10 votes for another integration. Do you weight those differently?
We don't really wait those differently, although we do spend more time talking with our power users. The reason why we want to hear their feedback is because they're the most enthusiastic and excited about talking to us. They have a lot more to say, a lot more to add. they're super familiar with the product so they can, they're kind of, almost like an extension of our team as far as them providing us information. We always love having connected customer interviews with our top customers, but we also look at a kind of a bird's eye view of just the sheer numbers and the sheer enthusiasm and also what makes sense as far as what's next for us, how those new features and products we'll wrap up into a nice cohesive product for people and also what is next on the horizon for JotForm and what are the goals that we're trying to achieve and how are new features and products are not just sporadically sprinkled in with our plan but really go towards the direction that we want to be going in.
For instance, last year when we launched JotForm 4.0, it had a whole host of lots of features, but the main feature was having everything be completely seamless and mobile. Everything from building a form through desktop, you can move it to tablet to your phone. We had offline capability, we had a lot of features that that went into that whole goal of having a really seamless mobile experience and we factored in the prioritization of all of those new features because we knew that our roadmap was that we were going to stay ahead of the curve as far as innovation and we knew that mobile was coming and we knew that it wasn't just about letting the end user, the person filling out the forms, we knew it wasn't adjusted about them having a mobile experience. It was also all the components that are happening throughout the world such as mobile work is being more widespread and people might want to work from a cafe around the world or the beach or all these different things where Wifi might be spotty or there's a lot of new issues of the modern workforce that we will also want to address in one fell swoop.
Sounds like you guys have really sort of really great leadership, you know, centered around where JotForm is going, how to prioritize. It sounds like those are difficult decisions. Obviously doing product roadmapping is very hard, but it sounds like you're doing it in a really smart way that you're getting all this perspective from the users, but also then aligning it back to where are we going, who are we, what's our strategy, what's our purpose? And that sounds really awesome. I mean, congrats you guys for being able to figure out that that huge process, and I cut you off before you had gone through the prelaunch process. You have, you know, almost Beta users in an MVP of a new feature. Then where do you go from there?
So by the time that launch day was upon us, we already had a bucket, if you will, have engaged active users that were actively using our new product. So by the time we had that post launch, we had already had marketing campaigns that supported the adoption of this new product. So we let people know that this product was coming, what to expect, what are the new features, how can that help them directly given how they use JotForm? So it was, we really use that prelaunch period to introduce them and reading them and kind of make people excited about what was next. And then on launch day we release it to everybody and then we also closely monitored the postlaunch plan to monitor for user adoption and how people were liking the product and we by default JotForm would give them two different options. The classic form layout which has all questions on one page and it's more of a traditional form and also JotForm Cards which the defining features that there's one question per page, but there's also a host of other features that go along with it.
But in showing that there's two options, we've really looked at things like what are people gravitating towards? Are there certain use cases that they would pick one but not the other and vice versa. So there was a lot of interesting analysis being done postlaunch as well. And then we did continue to refine postlaunch and then, you know, postlaunch it became more of a marketing challenge of how to do user education the right way. How to make sure that our users are getting the most value out of the product and really introducing them to new features that they can explore and decide if their company needs that as well.
That's amazing. Yeah, that sounds so smart as far as monitoring it afterwards, getting feedback, making sure that you have, you know, any update on boarding or updated activation things that you need to get them into those features. I love the idea also of like looking up how people are using it. Did that help you guys to figure out different segments that you could then go out and do co marketing with? I think you had mentioned before that co marketing had been a really great way for you guys to expand and get new products, new leads in. Talk a little bit about how you've taken, you take a piece, like a new launch and then you go out to co marketing partners and you've used that system.
Sure. So we're, we're really heavy on the integrations. In fact, JotForm has way more integrations than any other competitor. We have over 100 at this point. So integrations and helping users get more power out of, out of their forms because it can connect to different business systems. That's pretty important to us. And when we do co marketing it is with a mindset of all of our integrations are available to all of our users. So whether you're free or you're paid, we, we have that accessible to everyone. And integrations are also used across our formats. So our two formats, classic and cards they can both use all of our integrations.
So when you're then going out to these marketing partners, are you just going on to integration partners and you're like hey we have an integration with you, would you like to set something up to do cold lead gen or how does that work and any surprising results you've had from that?
JotForm from is super open to marketing and it actually goes both sides. So if a company wants to build an integration with JotForm the resources to do that are available online. So companies are, are more than, you know, they can, they can just go to the JotForm's integration page, build an integration. And then talk about marketing with us sometimes JotForm, we will build the integration with another company. So it really goes both ways. But once we get down to talking about marketing, it really is about how our customers overlap and what kind of messaging makes sense for them. For instance, we look at seasonal trends. So right now it's May and summer is upon us and we had a campaign recently with Square the payments company about summer camps. So we had some users, we had a group of users that were managers of summer camps. They were directors. They were accepting registrations and payments and all the processes that go along with keeping a summer camp organization running and Square in turn also had people who were using Square to collect payments for summer camps. So we really joined forces for this most recent campaign where we have designated landing pages on, on each of our websites to drive traffic there. So for instance, JotForm would target our users with an email marketing campaign and send those users to the Square and JotForm landing page and vice versa. So this really establishes a sense of trust because, you know, when we talked to our customers, they use JotForm, they, I mean hopefully like JotForm so when we introduce them to a partner there is that trust there. And another thing is we have over 20 different payment integrations and we are in large part unbiased.
So we want what's best for our customers so they can trust us when we talk about different payment integrations and a little bit of difference between them. It's not really coming from a place of we're trying to convince them one way or another. So I think that customers appreciate that. And from the Square side, it's really great to get new users and for us specifically, payments are really huge for us because as you can imagine, customers that are using JotForm for custom payment forms on their website to collect registrations and payments and tickets and things like that. They're collecting payments, they're probably going to be a stronger user and they're probably going to be higher up in our paid plan. So paid users are really valuable for us. And custom payment forms is something that Square doesn't offer but JotForm drop does. So it's really nice to joined forces. So it really is a win win for both ends of the co marketing campaign.
Yeah, no, I love that. I think you did a very unique thing by finding such a small segment like the camp companies and is such a good example of how to segment and find like overlapping customer base. That's incredible. It sounds like it is a win win on both sides. On those landing pages, when you do these co marketing promotions, do you offer trials for both accounts? Is it a bundle or is it a paid plan with discounts? What do you guys typically find works best?
Really depends based on the integration, sometimes certain integrations such as payment companies would give our users a special deal like free processing up to a certain amount or something like that. But the value add really lies in both products being able to work together. So if you're using JotForm for a payment form, whether you are building out a custom subscription box, JotForm also supports a recurring payments or monthly payments or subscription payments or if you're using JotForm for any other sort of collecting payments, collecting donations for nonprofits, et cetera. The value add is being able to seamlessly integrate with the payment solution of your choice that your company is probably already using. So it's really seamless as to have that custom fully designed payment form that you can throw on your website and it looks custom builds. That's really the value add there. And another value add of using JobForm for custom payments is that we have been global security because because John Form doesn't process these payments, JotForm uses a Paypal, Stripe, Square, any other trusted payment processor to actually collect that credit card information. So safety is really important for our users, so we make sure that their payment data is safe.
Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, totally. What about, you know, looking back, I guess you've been there for almost four years now. What has been the biggest win for you guys? Has it been, you know, just your amazing product growth model, has it been come marketing? What has really stood out as just a, an amazing marketing experiment that you guys have been able to pull off?
So there's been a couple that I have in mind. One of my favorite and best memories at JotForm is actually when we did a lot of user acquisition efforts because one of our competitors had shut down, so Adobe's product FormsCentral had shut down and they gave their users six months to find a new solution and it was so much fun and our entire company came together to really lead this effort into capturing Adobe's users and also making sure that all of their forms and data were really nicely imported to us. Because for a lot of companies they pour many, many hours into creating these sometimes very lengthy forms. They can have like 100 different form fields and they're highly customizable. So we definitely didn't want them to have to recreate any of that from scratch. So we did a really great marketing campaign to really easily import them over. And our engineers built an import tool, they can see mostly do that and to support, to support everything. We even added a new feature that, that product had that some of our customers might want. So we really tried to hold their hand and make a, made sure that their process was really, really nice and easy because no one likes a when they're, when a business tool that they use everyday is just shutting down.
Yeah, no, totally. And I think you did an amazing job of like, like you said, bringing the team together, having engineering come up with a custom way to import them. And then probably, you know, custom landing pages. How were you guys getting in front of those customers? Were you just doing advertising to that product? Basically?
So that's a great question. So you never know who's going to help you. So when we found out that Adobe FormsCentral were shutting down and we were really notified by this because we had a flood of customer support inquiries. People were writing to us. Some of them were pretty panicked about their product is shutting down like what's going on? Can I have more information about JotForm and, and that, that's how I found out that they were shutting down, but we've really wanted to find the specific person at Adobe that was responsible for the happiness of FormsCentral users and at the time, like none of us really had like a specific, you know, Adobe is such a big company. It felt like finding that needle in the haystack of who is this person that can help us, but, you know, with a stroke of luck, I actually found that person on Linkedin and we had a great meeting and discussion where I presented basically JotForm and how that relates to FormsCentral and we established a partnership there.
So Adobe referred JotForm as well as a couple other competitors to kind of stand by us. But more importantly we were their preferred solution in the, in the customer threads at Adobe. So that was really great to have Adobe recommend JotForm. That was amazing for user acquisition and referrals. But we also wanted to really establish this partnership. We created an integration together and we had, you know, a blog post on Adobe and, we really made sure that their Adobe users were happy. We added their e sign widget so we can collect signatures, signatures online with JotForm through the Adobe product. So it was, you know, forming a partnership was really everything for us and on top of that we also did marketing things like SEM, Adwords, social media, different content pieces online. So we really did a lot to support those users.
That is awesome. Congratulations for finding that person and being able to make such a great partnership. That's incredible. That was such a good idea. It wasn't just a give me give me kind of partnership. You did everything on your guys' aside to help their customers and I'm sure they were really excited to have a company to pass those people off to. Obviously people that work at FormsCentral, were probably not excited that their product was shutting down, but knowing that they're going to good hands is always a great feeling. Actually. Do you want to go through the other one that you had? You said you had a couple of ideas that came to mind, as marketing wins.
Yeah. So another huge project that, I mean I was probably the most excited about was when we launched our new interface. That was really a game changer for us and you know, when I joined the company I, I was so impressed by the power of the forms and how they could really help people across the world, you know, save time and really catapult their businesses to more success. I thought the product was great, but quite frankly, I thought that the interface was pretty ugly. Back in the day, back in 2014, so that was always kind of a pain point, especially since, you know, we had leveled up to an enterprise product and we needed our interface to reflect that. So, you know, changing the entire interface and we actually built that interface from scratch. Like we coded that out from scratch and it was a huge undertaking. It was quite a process to discover how the interface should look, you know, where it goes where like, what's the user experience. It was, it was so much about making things incredibly easy because JotForm had been calling itself the easiest form builder for so long that it was easy, but, but people expect a really high level of ease now, especially since there's so many competitors and there are so many tools available. So we really needed to double down on. So the way we did that was a lot of user testing. We actually introduced a lot of people who had no experience with online forms and we had them do things like create a contact for create a survey or all of these tasks and they would narrate what they're doing and what they're thinking and really getting inside their heads and discovering what is the best place to put this button. And then really transforming that into making your entire product look and feel and, and make the whole thing better. That was a huge win because it really leveled up the job from experience and it made people engage with the product better and it didn't scare away people that were, you know, that consider themselves maybe not computer savvy. It really became the solution for everybody.
We did something similar with our product as far as like we wanted to be the simplest webinar platform and it takes us so much time and thought and it's incredible when you get that feedback from people that are like, I'm not tech savvy, but I figured this out in just seconds. So I'm sure that took a ton of time for you guys to figure that stuff out because it's not easy, especially when you're navigating. When you guys have put so much into your product. Like you said, you had so many different features and all that stuff. So it takes a lot of time. I know it probably took a lot of time to do custom development from scratch, which is, which is crazy, but maybe give us a win. Where have you guys grown too since you've been able to launch all these amazing initiatives?
So we're over 3.6 million users now and, but more importantly, our active users are way up. We really. And that's our main KPI about, when we look at the company is obviously not just the signups but who is active and engaged and with, we've really come a long way into determining who is active and who is engaged because it's not very simple when you have a product where it can function outside the dashboard, when people throw one of our forms on their website that can collect data for them for years to come, even if they haven't logged into their JotForm platform in a year. So there's a lot of nuances to think about and we think about who is engaged. So we've really, we've really honed that down into people who are accepting submissions and really including those that don't necessarily log in and work with inner dashboard every day, but are definitely using the product on a regular basis.
So you would say that someone with a, with a contact form on their website that hasn't logged in in a year or so, an active user?
Yes. If they're still accepting submissions and it's still a part of their workflow.
Well I think that's a really smart idea to do it that way just because it's like it's. It's hard. I think doing a product by product basis, it's hard to say what is an active user because there are so many different things there. I think you guys have one of those very similar to us. We have like an event based platform so we could set up a webinar one time and then come back in two months and do another one. Same with you guys, you know, they can set up a form once and I'm sure you also have hyperactive users who are in there creating forms on a weekly basis because they're in a bigger company and many more initiatives to run.
Yeah. In fact agencies is really big for us. A lot of creative agencies use JotForm for all their clients, so it's a very interesting use case because they are JotForm pros and they're really, they really know how to use a product, but they're also setting it up for their clients so. And they could set it up for their clients with their own JotForm account, so there are certain people who are setting up like hundreds of JotForm accounts and they're amazing referals and that comes with a lot of creative and web design agencies that are like building out websites for clients and that kind of thing.
Yeah, totally. Those are probably amazing customers. And where do you see for you guys marketing changing in 2018. We're about halfway through the year almost, which is crazy. Where do you see things going?
So we've had like other launches and, and we really just, there is so much more to do as far as really, really infiltrating and really getting down into the nitty gritty of brand awareness through all of our different roles and industries. So that's always an ongoing challenge. But we recently launched HIPAA compliance. So another thing that we're going to be helping out is with healthcare industry, the healthcare industry. So a lot of hospitals and small practices that are using us now, they can use us for broader, broader reasons because we are HIPAA compliant. So you know, we're more, we're totally equipped to handle even the most sensitive patient data. So healthcare is definitely going to be one of the priorities for us, but generally across the board it's really gonna be, you know, really going after the whole breath of all the different people threat organization and then also trying to get a lot of our larger companies to kind of merge accounts and just be more on the enterprise mindset because a lot of companies they might have like 100 different JotForm accounts, but all of those account holders are individual users. So we have the ability to have a lot of sub users and have a single sign in a company, you know, customized workflow. So we would really like to have people kind of collect all of those different usernames into one super powerful like company JotForm account.
Yeah. No, that'd be so, like really easy for them. They could white label and have an easy way to get out there. I think that'd be incredible. Well, that sounds exciting. It sounds like you guys have a lot to do this year. And I know you're going to continue to grow that, that launch process that you have is absolutely incredible. Something that I'm going to steal from a little bit, but it sounds really amazing as far as like just the validation that you go through from top to bottom to get those things out there from product features to priorities to marketing language. All of it's great, but due to time here, I do want to jump forward into our lightning round questions. These are just questions I'll ask you quickly and just answer with the first thought that comes to mind. That's really fun way to learn a lot of good info. Are you ready to go? Alright. What advice for early stage SaaS companies starting marketing?
I would say to get the basics down first. What would be the basics: establish your email, your social, your in product messaging. Just get that core messaging and positioning down first.
Love it. What marketing skill do you think is vital for marketing teams to improve and build on today?
I think content is super important. I think just getting the right messaging is everything. We sometimes spend like an hour on like a tagline or even more than an hour. So really getting every word specific in right.
Love that, best resources you'd recommend for marketing, educational resource, I should say.
I would say webinars, which is a good, good match for your platform.
Yeah. But yeah, definitely like in depth information from industry experts
Anywhere in particular, you go to find webinars like that?
I mean YouTube is always a great source if you know whatever space that your company is in. I would say look at the thought leaders there.
Love that. What about a favorite marketing tool you can't live without?
Well, we, we need Google Analytics. I would say that. Just tracking, tracking what people are doing on your website.
That that's pretty much the number one tool that everyone says. It's just so critical for marketing. What about a brand business or team that you admire today?
The Pinterest product? I think that they're doing a lot of cool things and I know that their machine learning is really on point because the emails that I get are really targeted.
I think that's awesome. Yeah, no, they're amazing product. They have an amazing story like the founder team and everything like that. So yeah, they are a great product. It's crazy what we're getting with machine learning these days and, yeah, no, that's a really good, really good example and Leeyen I just want to thank you so much for your time today. It was a real pleasure having you on. Again, I love your system that you guys are doing over there at JotForm and obviously you're doing an amazing job seeing how you guys have pretty much doubled or more than doubled your user base in just a few years, you know, like you said, your active users are going up and up and up. So I wish you guys the best. I know it's getting more and more saturated over there in the form niche, but you guys are doing a great job and still a huge leader. So wish you guys the continued best here in 2018. And then just thank you again for sharing so much.
Thank you so much.
Alright, talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. (...)