SaaS Breakthrough – Featuring Talia Wolf

demio saas breakthrough featuring talia wolf About Talia Wolf:

Talia Wolf is the founder of GetUplift which provides conversion optimization services for high-growth companies. Using customer-centric strategies, emotional targeting, persuasion and data, Talia generates more revenue, sales and leads for her clients and students.

Talia has taught on stages such as Google, MozCon, CTAconf, Search Love and many more and was recently listed as one of the most influential experts in conversion optimization.

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Show Notes:
Using Psychology, Persuasion and Emotion to Optimize Websites and Funnels
Finding Product Market Fit
The Emotional Targeting Methodology
SaaS Case Study: A Presentation Platform
The Questions Marketers Should Be Asking
Case Study: Going Back to Basics on a Website
How Marketers Should Approach Testing
The Role of Tools
More Companies Becoming Customer Centric
Lightning Questions

Hey, Talia. Thank you so much for joining me today on the SaaS Breakthrough podcast. I'm really excited to have you here to talk a little bit more about conversion optimization in your journey with SaaS companies in doing that. How are you doing today?
TW [03:01]:
I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to get started.
DA [03:06]:
Yeah. We have a ton to talk about so we can just jump right in. There's lots of different experiments and topics to go through. Before we do that, I guess give us a quick background on GetUplift, your company, who the average customers are and what you're doing uniquely right now in the marketplace?
TW [03:23]:
Sure. So, GetUplift is actually a consultancy business. Well, it's actually divided into two. We are consultancy and we also train people. So, the consultancy part of the business is where we help companies and businesses optimize their websites, their funnels, their emails, landing pages etcetera and essentially help them increase conversions for retention and just scale their business. So, what we're doing differently is essentially using a framework that I've developed over the past few years.
Been using it for about five to six years now, called the Emotional Targeting Methodology. And we're using psychology, persuasion and of course emotion to optimize websites. It's based on a lot of trial and error and many things that I tried to do beforehand before I started GetUplift, when I was trying to optimize website, it wasn't getting the results that I wanted. So, I basically went back to the drawing board created a new framework and started working on that.
So, it's very different than what most companies are doing today with conversion optimization because most conversion optimization today is focused around changing elements on the page and really trying to optimize one or two KPIs. My goal when I help businesses is to essentially grow their entire business and learn as much as possible about their target audience whether it's B2B or B2C to really get into the minds and the heads of the customers and using that to optimize their funnels.
DA [05:01]:
That makes a ton of sense and that's fantastic that you have that experience. How did you find that product market fit for the consultancy? How did you know who to go to when you're doing it for yourself? Where do you go first? How do you build up this kind of target market and eventually get into kind of SaaS where you are right now?
TW [05:17]:
It's actually quite interesting because in order to understand how I found product market then you probably have to understand my background but when I started out in marketing over a decade ago, I was doing social media. I was just focusing on working in the social media agency, getting likes and comments for companies.
So, I was in charge of many different things but I was really wracking my brain when we would sit with clients and try and prove that we did something you know, showed the reports and I would keep asking them “have you checked in Google Analytics? What are the results you are seeing? Are you seeing any new leads?” Like I was trying to get more information but back then, everyone was just so psyched about engagement. No one really cared about ROI. So, I actually started doing small tests.
I didn't even know that's what they were when I got started. I was changing different elements in the ads, on the landing pages and just checking to see what would work better and I then found out that that is an entire whole industry. Actually, it wasn't really a bit interesting back then, there were maybe two or three companies doing conversion optimization back then. But it was super interesting, I understood that that's what I was doing and it kind of led me into that area.
And I started my own agency Conversioner and I did it with two other partners and it was super cool because we were basically optimizing websites for our clients. Back then, I had to really beg companies to understand the value of conversion optimization, we're talking about the era when people only wanted to drive more traffic. All they cared about was just you know getting as much eyeballs on their website but they didn't really think about what happens when people come to that website.
And a lot of the work that I was doing was actually just explaining why conversion optimization even matters but once I got over that problem, we then started optimizing their website. And even though we got some really cool results and we were really growing businesses, what I noticed is that when we stopped working with these companies, they were kind of left alone and they didn't really have the tools to continue and scale on their own. And that's actually why I started GetUplift which is more of a research based consultancy.
So, a lot of the work that we do is really to do with customer centric optimization. A lot of research, a lot of psychological profiles, interviews, surveys and much more to really understand the customer. And once we do that, it's easier for us to transfer that information and all those details to our clients. So essentially, I'm working with my clients hand-in-hand to help them optimize their websites rather than doing it for them, where they're basically left with not much.
So, when I was looking for the right clients for that, it had to be high-growth companies that are either already trying to do conversion optimization or getting started with it but have a foundation and an understanding of what they want to achieve. And it was easier for me to then jump into there and say “I know you've been trying all sorts of things but here's what I want to contribute.
Here's how I'm going to help you not just increase one KPI but literally learn so much more about your client base, understand their emotions, understand who they are and then transfer all of that information, all of that knowledge that we learn from the AB tests we do together to everyone in your company. So, we're talking about sales and retention and product, everyone in your company will be able to learn from the test that we run and apply that to their work”.
So, it was really easier for me to find the right type of client within one call and understand who is really ready for this type of work and who isn’t. Does that make sense?
DA [09:28]:
That absolutely makes sense. Yet I was going to ask you as a follow-up, like who is ready? But that makes sense that you have to have that high-growth, type of company coming because you have to have some things to start testing, they've already been testing a little bit, now you can bring that new methodology into this whole process. And I guess let's break that down a little bit more. I want to get into like specific experiments that you're doing, some of these specific tests and things.
But I guess to understand that we have to understand that emotional targeting methodology that you talked about, can you break that down for us?
TW [09:56]:
Sure. So, the idea of it is when I started optimizing websites, I would essentially do the basic stuff. So, I would change the call-to-action button, I would try different a headline, I would change maybe an image, maybe I'd introduce a pop-up, we might even work on the technical stuff like reducing load time and stuff like that but we'd never really get really valuable results. We would increase conversions but it wasn't the moving the needle as people like to say or really affecting the bottom line which is what we were looking for.
And that brought me back to start thinking about what is conversion optimization and I really did understand that conversion optimization isn't about changing elements on the page, it's about solving people's problems. And the only way to really make a change and an impact on the bottom line, is to really understand people, the people behind the screens. And what I was noticing is that everyone around me and all the biggest brands in the world, are doing fantastically offline so if you look at all the ads and the videos everything's very emotional.
Everything's geared towards making you feel something towards the solution that they're selling. But when we came and we looked at the online world all we saw was benefits, features, pricing. Everyone's focusing on numbers and data and everyone loves to say how data-centric, they are the data-driven but in my opinion and from my work and what I've seen in my experience is that that is a very dangerous place to tread in because we forget that there's people behind the screens.
We forget that what motivates people to buy isn't features, isn't pricing, it's not the sale, it's emotion. Every decision we make in life has an emotional reason to it. Whether if it's because we want to feel loved, to want to feel part of a community, we want to feel appreciated by our peers, maybe you want a higher self-esteem, whatever it is no matter what you are selling, what people care about isn't the what, it's the why.
And this is the biggest difference because if you look at most SaaS businesses today, you'll notice that they're spelling out what they do on the page. “Here's our product, here's what it looks like, here's a screenshot, here are the biggest features, here's why we're better than our competitors” but there's absolutely no emotion on the page. And what I mean by that is that we're not talking to our customers heart, we're not understanding what their intention is, what their intent is, what their challenges are, what their fears are. I get this a lot.
People say to me you know emotion works amazing in B2C because of course purchasing B2C product is an emotional thing but that's not that it's not true for B2B and they couldn't be more wrong. When you're purchasing something for your company, whether you are at the manager, the CEO or you're just you know a regular Joe working in the company, there are so many things that impact your decision. Whether it's how people are going to react to the decision.
If it's going to work, if it isn't. If you're going to be accepted, if people are even going to use the product, what if something goes wrong? There's so many different emotions involved in that decision and we don't address them. In SaaS, we just assume people are analytical, they're rational, they make rational decisions and that's it but that's not true.
So essentially, what we've been doing with the emotional targeting methodology is reaching into people's hearts and understanding their intent, their fears, their challenges, what is the problem they're facing every single day? What were they doing a minute before they searched for our solution? Why are they searching for the solution? What gets in their way? What drives them nuts every day that they had to find a solution?
Understanding that helps us choose better copy, better images, better colors in terms of color psychology and everything comes into place so when you understand why people make purchasing decisions, what really motivates them, the emotional trigger behind that, then you can create a better experience you can create better landing pages but email sequences and everything will fall in place. Because you have to start with the emotional hook and then lead them into features benefit and stuff like that.
But if you don't grab people by the emotion and by that feeling, they're not going to convert. Because there's hundreds if not thousands of competitors out there and solutions out there that are competing for your target audience. Everyone's trying to grab people's attention and you have to do that with emotion. So, that is essentially the emotional targeting methodology.
We just really dive deep into people's emotion, intent and understand what it is we want to test, what emotional triggers do we want to show on the page, what copy, what words, what colors, what images? And pull it all together for a hypothesis and run an AB test.
DA [15:17]:
That was freaking fantastic. First of all, I love this. This is amazing and it's basically saying okay instead of just doing small little hacks like you said that I'll do little tiny percentage optics, it's understanding our customer completely, understanding the emotional drivers, the frustrations, the aspirations, knowing everything and then creating experiments based on that because those will actually be the big optics come from that.
And what I want to say is can we take this into some specifics? Can we talk about some maybe specific winning campaigns and maybe some of the hypothesis and experiments that have come out from it?
TW [15:50]:
Sure. So, we've been doing a lot of work for SaaS over the past few years and I think there's many different case studies we can talk about and there's many different tests that we can talk about but I think one of the interesting things that I've found, and we've been doing a few tests with a platform that helps you create presentations for work. So it's essentially, a Prezi competitor, a Keynote competitor and maybe a PowerPoint competitor.
And it's a really interesting product because at the end of the day, there's so many competitors out there that are free like Keynote, like PowerPoint that allow you to create presentations for free. So, the fact that people are willing to pay for a product that they're getting for free is a really interesting concept. And when we started working with this company, they were you know mentioning how many templates they have and how many different features they have and they weren't really getting the results that they wanted.
And when we looked at the page we really did recognize an issue that many B2B companies suffer from which is they make it about themselves. So, the headline is about what the product does, the bullet points are about what the product includes, the main visual was actually a video showing how to use the product, so everything on the page was about the product but the client, the customer wasn't there.
And when we did our research, we figured out that the people behind the screens were marketers and these marketers, they had a problem, they wanted to stand out, they wanted to be appreciated by their managers, they wanted to be appreciated by their peers, they wanted to create something that will really show off all the hard work they've been doing over the past year month or whatever and get the credit that they deserve. And this is really powerful because when you ask people “Hey, why did you sign up for this product?”
They immediately say “Well, you had the most features or you were the cheapest or whatever” but when you dig deep and you ask the right questions, soon you'll find that what they were saying was “Well, we wanted to stand out, we wanted people to appreciate our work, we really wanted to create something memorable and this for us, was the key for the entire variation that we created.
And when we actually created the new variation, it was all about the customer making impressive and for graphics making, impressive presentations that they can do it in less than 10 minutes.
Because one of the biggest fears that they had was that they were not designers, they were marketers. So, how can they create a presentation if they don't have those design skills? So, addressing that fear, talking about the end result that they're going to have and showing social proof that really talks about how they're going to stand out and how people are going to appreciate them.
And showing how other people who have used this product, have been shown appreciation from people around them and gotten that good word with that they were looking for. And what was interesting is that we were actually able to increase registrations for the product by 24% but even more interesting was actually the rate of engagement.
And what I mean by that is people who were actually creating presentations, coming back creating more presentations, creating more infographics, so essentially increasing the retention of the product that increased by 76%.
Now, this is an incredible number not because I did it but just thinking about why this happened. When people get the right hook, the right message at the beginning and this is just a landing page, nothing within the product yet that we did, just the landing page. When people get the right product, when they understand what's in it for them, they will use that product even if it has bugs and all sorts of issues because they get the value.
So, that to me, is one of the biggest like the biggest case studies that I like talking about because it really highlights what you can do with emotion and of course is many other things but that's kind of the first one that comes to mind when you asked me about results.
DA [20:19]:
I have so many light bulbs going off of my head. This makes so much sense. It's so logical on why you would do it in this way. When you typically go into a company as you said most of the time, they're just like showcasing benefits and features and functions. Is that just a result of not knowing how to do marketing or is it really the result of just not knowing your customer enough and are there specific questions that marketers need to continue to ask to dive deeper early on in kind of the marketing process?
TW [20:49]:
Definitely. I guess I can divide that into two. So, number one; why is this happening? And that's because what we've somehow convinced ourselves over the years and because we're doing so much as marketers and I do this too with my own business, right? Because my other part of my business is courses and when I am trying to get people to enroll to my course, I do the same thing. Sometimes I go back to “Hey, here's all the chapters and here's all the information that you're going to get”.
And I forget to put that emphasis on emotion and what you're what the value is and it happens because we've somehow convinced ourselves that people are rational and we're so used to looking at data and numbers. And people all over the world keep telling us to be data-driven that we're moving further and further away than the person behind the screen. And when you think about it today in marketing is about automation, all the buzzwords and machine learning and stuff like that.
Like how can we automate everything and never use humans to do stuff? And the problem with that is that no matter what machine learning or AI you use, or but current buzzword you use, you're still going to need the copywriter, you're still going to need the designer, someone to create something behind that that understands people. But we're in the rush to automate everything and we forget all of that, so all of the good stuff that is so well used in the offline world. So, I feel like that's why it's happening and we've forgotten why people make decisions.
And it's also easier for us to say “This is why people make decisions. People want pricing, people want better features and there's so many competitors out there. How can we compete? When we think about competition, we think about pricing”. So, I think that's kind of where it lies and the second part of it is of course we don't know our customers. We forget what's behind it. Many businesses know what they're selling and they know how they're selling it but they don't know the ‘why’.
We don't really know what motivates the people behind the screen and we don't do enough research in order to understand it. And when you look at it, I'll say you know you should know your customers and when I ask people “So, who's your customer or who is your client?” Then the answers I get are “This is their geographical location, this is their age, these are the browsers that they use, and this is how much time they spend on the website”. But that's not what I want to know.
I want to know what wakes them up at night, I want to know what they're searching for online, I want to know what drives them nuts every day and in order to do that you have to do surveys. But then, you look at surveys that companies are running today on any websites, they're normally “Hey, what stopped you from buying today or what do you think of our website?” They're really general questions that don't, you know they're missing the real core of what we're looking for.
So, when you ask me what kind of questions marketers should be asking, there are many questions they should be asking but I do have my favorite questions that I like to ask and for example one of them is; “What was going on in your life today that made you search for this solution? So, what was happening? Why was this happening? What was going on? You went into Google or Bing maybe and wrote this is the problem or this is a solution, what made you do that? What happened a moment before you said this thing?”
Or if I'm reaching out to my already existing client base, I would ask them “Hey, when you weren't using this solution, how did you solve this problem? What were you doing?” And just leaving it at that, just trying to understand what people are doing and the reason you want to know this is because if you understand what things people are trying out, so maybe they're trying Excel and spreadsheets and maybe they're just trying to do all sorts of really weird things to solve their problem, you can mention that on your landing page.
You can say “Hey, we know that you're struggling right now. Have you tried spreadsheets? You try wrapping your brain around so much data and you still can't comprehend what's going on, here's a solution for you”. So, you're essentially connecting to people, you understand their pain, you're showing them that you understand them and you're providing that solution to them. So, you're not just saying “Hey, we're twenty percent off today, sign up or register”.
You're actually saying “I understand you, I know who you are”. So, another great question you can ask is “Hey, if you couldn't use this solution anymore, what would you miss the most?” And this is one of my favorite questions because most companies and most marketers will think “Oh they're going to say this feature or that feature” but you will be surprised they're going to say really random stuff you had no idea about.
They're going to mention the things and the things that really bug them that you sold for them and suddenly, you will understand where your product really helps people. So, these are kind of the questions that you want to start asking that are more than “What is your favorite feature or what should we take away or what should we add to our product?” Start asking more emotion based questions in order to understand the person behind the screen. I hope this makes sense.
DA [26:28]:
Yeah. Not only does it make sense, you're just dropping so much great information. This is really just fantastic, you're doing a fantastic job of enlightening me and the entire podcast audience. So, I want to go back real fast. Are there any other experiments that you want to talk about? We went through one, really good one. Any other campaigns that have been awesome that have some great winning results from them?
TW [26:50]:
Sure. So, I was thinking a bit about it today when I was thinking about what kind of websites can I tell you about? So, I was recently working with a website in China and Japan and they are a Chinese company, a Japanese company and they're trying to reach the American audience and the Western audience. And it's essentially a website product that allows you to run heat maps and all sorts of data and analytics on your website. And it's really interesting because what I see is a trend.
So, if you look at many websites today and I haven't actually looked at Demio’s website for a very long time and will as I'm speaking.
DA [27:36]:
I want to hear all the notes.
TW [27:39]:
If you check out a lot of the websites today in SaaS, they kind of look the same and what I mean by that is they're all following a certain trend, we're all trying to look the same. So, you have the “Here's what we do” and we have a screenshot on one side of the screen, and as I'm saying this, I'm looking at your website, sorry.
DA [28:06]:
At least we fit the template.
TW [28:08]:
It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong because maybe your target audience needs to see this. Perhaps your target audience is most aware or at least product aware which means they know about you, they're ready to convert, they're just in the trying to assess which product to choose and then showing these kind of things on your website is the right thing to do. It really depends on the level or the stage of awareness your prospects are in but maybe we'll get into that soon.
But essentially, what I've noticed is that many companies especially in B2B, they love the trends. They love following what the big brands are doing, everyone's doing more of the same. And this company that I'm talking about right now, they had this video in the background that was running with all these charts and things going on and they had tagline and whatever all this stuff going on the page and we did some user testing. And yes, user testing do it because it's awesome and so valuable especially in B2B.
We did some user testing and we noticed that people were just super-mega confused about what this company does and it's essentially a heatmap tool. That's all it is but people were confused. So, we did something really simple. We removed the background video.
Now, think about it, we didn't do that much. I mean we changed a bit of the headline, we changed some of the copy instead of talking about how many features, we have we started talking more about being able to deliver more valuable results, having better reporting to show to your managers and stuff like that.
But the biggest change we made is removed the background and essentially there was no background. It was just green and it had the copy on it, had the bullet points, the benefits there and it increased signups by 57% and it had an 80% increase in implementation of the JavaScript code on websites.
So, now why am I actually telling you this? Because I think that many of us forget the basic UX rules. Like more whitespace, less things moving around on the stick in the background, no ghost buttons, just things that are easy for people to look at and take in your content.
Sometimes, you have great copy, you have great visuals but the page itself is distracting and hard to read. So, just by doing this, we were able to just kind of simplify things. Remove the noise and remove all the mentions about the company and remove all the fantastic things and the features in the background that we're running just to show how cool they are and how advanced they are and bolt it down to basics and it increased implementation by 80%. So, I feel like that's a really important thing to also remember, is to go back to basics.
DA [31:07]:
Absolutely. And I love that you're not just testing and like the KPIS aren't just signups. It's about implementation because that is the key thing and so even if you kept signups the same but implementation went up. That is a gigantic win. So, that's a fantastic case study.
Quick question for you; when you do these tests and you're coming into these different companies, do you have pretty much the same template of tests that you're going to run or does each company have kind of a different test setup based on what they need and the problems they have?
And I guess the point of this question and the way you can answer is for marketers listening. How should they be approaching testing? Should they think about “Hey, we need to do these five tests or they just need to go back and like think about what problems they're trying to solve specifically with conversion rate optimization?
TW [31:53]:
Yeah. And I think that's a great question because first of all, we do create testing roadmaps according to the business. And what that means is that before we do any testing, we actually go through a stage of discovery and that's all the research that I started mentioning. And I've been mentioning throughout this couple is that we do a lot of research and it's not just emotional research and the psychological research and all that, we're also doing data analysis.
So, we're looking into prioritization in terms of time, impact, resources, where can we actually have the biggest impact on the bottom line? What tests can we run that will use the least amount of resources that will take the least time to get up into the air and get results from? So, it's all about prioritization. So, we don't have a one thing to fit them all kind of thing, it's more about adapting towards the business and their needs.
However, there are basic things that I do love to test and one of them which is I have mentioned quite a few times today, is the becoming customer centric and that means one of the tests that I love to run is product centric versus customer centric. So, if we look at the B2B company or the SaaS Company that we're looking at and they are very product focused, that's great. I normally love to run a customer-focused test which means instead of talking about us, I create a variation that includes all the copy and all the design is geared towards the customer, their value. It normally starts with will try and fit in the pain that they're experiencing and then the promise. So, the feeling that people want to feel once they've found a solution.
So, those are kind of general tests that I'd like to run. I also love running before and after tests in terms of what works more, highlighting the pain that people are experiencing right now or highlighting the potential result that they can get. So, those are kind of general tests that I love running but you never know if you can actually run these type of tests and how big they can be unless we really prioritize the tests and make sure that they work well in terms of time resource and impact.
DA [34:34]:
Yeah. It makes sense. It's a complex kind of equation here that you're working through but when you come in here to do these tests, do you have a certain tool kit you're bringing in, certain tools that you're using or do you have to kind of use the tools that the client already has implemented? Anything you recommend for us to use as far as testing in this process?
TW [34:53]:
Yeah. So, I mean it really depends on the company because as you said, some companies are already using different tools so if they are already using Optimizely or Google Optimizer or VWO, then I will use what they have unless it's really not working and there's a problem there. I will try and use the tools that they're already using for maybe testing itself.
However, there are tools that I'd love to use when I start doing the research and that would be tools like HotJar for heat maps, TypeForm or SurveyMonkey for running surveys and really doing interviews with clients are really my to-go-to tools but again, some companies are already using different tools so I try and adapt and use whatever they are using.
Because the one thing that I found with conversion optimization, is that people come into it thinking “This is going to be great. I'm going to run some amazing tests. Talia has these fantastic results. It's going to be easy-peasy”. And then you get frustrated because it takes so much time. And it's so much implementation and there's so many different things you need to go through and understand and some tests don't win. And some tests don't work and you need to be ready for that and in a mindset that some things are going to have problems.
So, for example I'm working with a very big publisher right now, one of the biggest competitors for Bloomberg and we found it's been taking us months to implement a testing tool, to understand what resources we can use, what resources are available, what we can't test, what we can test, what's being tracked, what isn't being tracked so it really depends on where the company is, what their results that they're looking for, what we found in our research and everything kind of is like a Sudoku when you're trying to just fit different pieces of the puzzle together. If that makes sense.
DA [36:56]:
Yeah. It does now. And I feel that pain, I mean for the past six months we've just been trying to implement MixPanel and we don't even have that setup yet and so I'm just ready to tear my hair out but I definitely can imagine how it is with different clients especially big clients that are all over the place with different tools that can be probably pretty difficult. But you know look, we're half way more than halfway through the year.
What things you see changing in the marketing landscape specifically related to kind of convert your optimizations? Are there any trends or opportunities that are happening that you're excited for?
TW [37:27]:
That's a good question. I guess I'm hoping this is kind of my goal, is to see more companies and I think I am seeing this trend of more companies becoming customer centric and really making it about the customer and taking it more towards really a big focus on the end user and less about themselves. One of the things that I love to say is stop asking what your goal is and start asking what your customer's goal is and I'm hoping that that's kind of the trend we're going to see.
I'm also hoping as I mentioned before, there's so many tools out there right now for automation that are removing people from the equation and I'm hoping to see a more combined approach from companies where they're using tools to streamline things but perhaps, doing more of the basics, doing more research, speaking to customers actually talking to people on the phone, interviewing them and really hearing their voice, hearing the words that they are using to describe your company in order to make better decisions.
So, that's kind of my dream more than where I see things are going but it's kind of what I'm hoping to see.
DA [38:49]:
No, I love that. I absolutely and listen we're all about video communication here at Demio and the relationships that build from those kind of conversations. So, we're right there with you. We would love to see that kind of becoming more of the norm, obviously you're talking more specifically marketing but lots of different areas of opportunity for that growth process. But cool, what I want to do now is I want to switch over to our lightning around question, just five quick questions for you to answer with the first best thought that comes to mind. Ready to get started?
TW [39:18]:
Okay, yeah.
DA [39:20]:
All right. Let's do this. No pressure. All right. What advice do you have for early-stage SaaS companies starting marketing today?
TW [39:29]:
Oh that's easy. Talk to people like actually talk to people like I just mentioned, get on the phone on a video call, use Demio and focus on the unique selling proposition on the value prop before anything.
DA [39:46]:
Love it. What skill do you think is vital for marketing teams to improve and build on today?
TW [39:52]:
I'm going to say it's not a skill. I think skills can be taught and learnt, I think what you really want is passionate people. People who are interested in what's going on, who are inquisitive open to new things, agile when things change because things do all the time in the world we are today. So, I would focus on finding good people who are passionate, who are just really want to learn as much as possible and care about the customer.
DA [40:26]:
That's such a good answer. I love that so much. What about a best educational resource you'd recommend for learning about marketing your growth?
TW [40:34]:
So, my two favorite are: Forget The Funnel. If you don't know them, Forget The Funnel is by Gia Laudi and Claire Suellentrop. They are kick-ass SaaS marketers, they have a whole business helping SaaS marketers just optimize themselves, 10x themselves, and they are amazing. And Copy Hackers which you've probably heard of. Copy Hackers is led by Joanna Wiebe. She's the original conversion copywriter, she is amazing and everything these three write is phenomenal and they're so geared towards SaaS and B2B that I would definitely follow them.
DA [41:21]:
Three fantastic marketers. I love all three of them. Great answer. What about a favorite tool you can't live without/
TW [41:28]:
Oh favorite tool. I want to say Slack but actually I have to say that lately it's Notion. I don't know if you know Notion.
DA [41:41]:
Love Notion. Yeah, we just put our whole business in there.
TW [41:45]:
Oh I am addicted. Like it took me a while to get into it but I'm addicted.
DA [41:50]:
Yeah, you can do so much with it. It's such a great company. What about a brand business or team that you admire today? And it might be Notion.
TW [41:57]:
So, yes. I mean I guess it is Notion. I love everything that they're doing. I love if you know them, fantastic company and I also love Slack. So, all of them. I just love what they're doing with their marketing and their whole product.
DA [41:18]:
I love that. I love Slack too. I just invested in them and so I'm excited to see them with their IPO, it's very cool. Not now like a round or anything like that just but yeah that's awesome. I mean you did a fantastic job. Did I tell you this was an amazing episode? Thank you for just going so in-depth and all of these different answers, talking about those case studies, really bringing to light some of those experiments you're doing. Really appreciate you jumping on.
TW [42:46]:
Sure. Thank you so much for having me.
DA [42:46]:
It was a real pleasure. Where can people go to find out more about the different methodologies and what you kind of doing over there?
TW [42:51]:
You can reach me on my website we've got a ton of blog posts and guides and free resources all about emotion persuasion and marketing so definitely check those out.
DA [43:06]:
I love it. I love it. We'll definitely do that. We'll also add that to the show notes and resources. Thanks again for jumping on Talia and we'll talk to you soon.
TW [43:13]:
Thank you.
DA [43:14]:
Oh man, that was such a great episode. Just a big shout-out to Talia and the GetUplift team for allowing us to go through and learn so much from her energy, her passion, her enthusiasm which is so apparent throughout the whole episode.

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