Learn from top SaaS marketers inside of the new SaaS Breakthrough Community​​​​  Facebook Group.  Join today:

DA: 02:55
Hi Adam. Thanks so much for joining me today on the SaaS breakthrough podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm a huge fan of Webflow. We're big time users of the platform. My co-founder is definitely a fanboy as well, so just want to say thank you so much for jumping on with us today.

AT: 03:12
Yeah, excited to be here and it's awesome that you guys use the platform and enjoy it.

DA: 03:17
Yeah, four websites built in it and it's saved us a ton of time and energy, but for those of, are those of the audience I should say that don't know who Webflow is. Maybe give us a little bit of background on what you guys do, when it was founded, who the customers are and maybe what you guys are doing uniquely in the marketplace.

AT: 03:32
Yeah, for sure. So Webflow is a web design and publishing platform that was built to really bridge the gap between coding and design. It's different than a lot of other tools in the kind of production space of web publishing because it actually lets you code sites visually and gives you a really cool design control. So it's basically the, you know, the power of Wordpress with the user interface of Photoshop and so is the, one of the only tools that has a, that features the full web development cycles so people use it for prototyping then the actual design and production and then launching and actually management of the live website as well. In a quick little background, Webflow was founded in 2013 by brothers Vlad and Sergie and their friend Brian. Went through YC, raised a little bit of capital, just about 2.9 million and then right off the bat got cashflow positive and we haven't been looking for any more funding or self funding ourselves with user growth.

DA: 04:35
That's amazing.

AT: 04:36
Yeah, it's very cool. It's one of the things that I find really fun and also challenging about the company. A quick thing about our customers, we solve for a lot of use cases, but with the nature of the tool, it really lends itself well to freelance web designers and design agencies who build sites for clients, but also they do a lot of their own portfolio work on it because it's so fun to use for them. And then we also have product designers use Webflow for prototyping for, for larger companies as well as marketers and marketing teams that use Webflow to do their marketing site and their landing pages as well.

DA: 05:14
That's awesome. Yeah, it's definitely. We fall into that latter category there. And when did you actually join the Webflow team? It's been around since 2013 you said, and when you joined, what was the biggest challenge that you faced coming in?

AT: 05:26
Yeah, so I joined the team in January of 2018. And yeah, and I think the, one of the biggest challenges was how we're going to tell the story of Webflow. You know, there's a crowded market a lot at the output of what Webflow does, like a tool that helps you make websites, but the power is really an understanding that that design and development gap and then because of, of, of all everything that Webflow can do, then there's a ton of different use cases and different people that can use Webflow for these different things. So the complexity of, of saying how are we gonna, how are you going to position ourselves as a brand? What channels and campaigns are we going to build to help tell this story in a way that can really help us stand out? Because once you get into the product and understand it, people are amazed, but you know, that's hard. That's hard. It's hard to give that experience upfront with marketing and growth initiatives. So that was a real, real big challenge there.

DA: 06:23
So you're faced with this challenge of differentiation telling our story, how do we stand out, how do you actually attack that? What's an objective that you can take on when you're first coming in?

AT: 06:35
Yeah. So, you know, we looked really strongly at the things that had driven Webflow and a lot of that was organic growth and a strong community which is like not super surprising for, you know, early companies. And then the other piece we looked at is, and what's, what's the actual strength of the tool? What causes those light bulb moments? And so, you know, it's a visual tool. A lot of what we're talking about is how to, how to use an interface visually to develop code. So you think thought very deeply, but then came to a really obvious conclusion. What's a really good medium to tell a visual story? It was video and so we invested in both video creative and also putting the video creative on specific channels where it would do really well. and so that was one of the big first things that we started to approach. Then also how do we galvanize the community and use the natural amplification elements of people that are really big fans and in the design community, you know, they really listened to each other like, like being able to have an influence her or anyone really say I worked with this tool and I think it's really good is, is, is, is really huge in a lot of communities, especially the design community. So those, those two places we really want to focus on, early in the process.

DA: 07:51
I want to ask about both, but on the, on the ladder or subject, you said you're using influencers, so you saw that advocates are referrals are so important. How do you actually double down on that and utilize that? What initiatives did you actually put in place for that?

AT: 08:05
Yeah. Yeah. So we started building an influencer program that is less focused on hey, let's find people who are marketing themselves as influencers and give them some money to promote our product. And more like because influencer marketing is like really exploded the last couple of years, which has i'ts, it's good and bad, right? Because then it creates a lot of people that are just, you know, they're just trying to make money off it, which isn't necessarily what you want. So it was identifying the vocal advocates we did have that we're already creating really good content, maybe not even just about us, but about like design in general and they had really cool points of view and reaching out to them for more like a partnership perspective. Like hey, like how can we help you? What are some things that information that you would like from us, do you want some early Beta access? Like oh do you want to work with us to make a template? And just finding out from certain people what would be a good way for them to work with us. And then kind of developing that into a more solid relationship where we could work together consistently over time and, and feed projects and ideas. And then on the flip side of that, you know, in a little bit more of the actual paid paid channel perspective, also creating a inbound affiliate program too because some people, you know, they don't want to work on a case by case basis with contracts and you know, access to things and then, you know, we'll work with them later, they want to drive traffic and get paid via affiliate links and there's some really, really high quality affiliates out there that build really amazing stuff. And so we started working with working with them more. We started marketing the affiliate program a little bit more and that's helped grow a lot as well.

DA: 09:46
What have you done to market the affiliate program and what percentage commission do you guys offer? We do that as well. We actually both referrals and affiliates are huge percentage of our growth. But what did you guys decide why did you decide on that percentage for, for affiliates?

AT: 10:01
Well, the percentage actually changes as people go farther up in the program. So like we're working on some accelerator percentages, that I don't have the exact numbers for, but like what we found, I think you'd probably people also see an affiliate programs. Is that a certain, like the top tier of the affiliates drive a lot of the actual upgrades or like what, what you want, you know. So we're like, okay, let's try and really incentivize people to get to that top tier. So creating a program to, for accelerators after you hit a certain amount. Also we created an affiliate newsletter for people that had signed up for the affiliate program to try and really get them interested in participating and then like a basic landing page to get to, to get inbound interest as well. And then, you know, as we worked closely with some of our top tier affiliates, they start to blend the lines of like influencer versus affiliate where they're not just in an affiliate program where they're self service were talking to them and we're saying like, hey, like, you know, this is clinical template you could make would go really well with our marketplace. Like, you know, if you want some help on it, if you want to discuss it, like here you go and then they're doing it and they're promoting it and then other people are saying, oh, like where did this come from? And like I'm part of the affiliate program and then they want to join the affiliate program and I found a lot in the design community. Really good designers, really passionate designers are friends with really good designers and passionate designers and if you can, you don't have to like sell really hard to them. You can show them good stuff and they'll take the time to like look at a really cool DIY kit you made and be like, wow, this is legit. Like this product is really good. Oh, this affiliate program is really good. Like let's like I want to work more with this company or I want to try this product.

DA: 11:46
That's awesome. So you basically doubled down on it and really gave them all the things they need. You knew your audience, you knew who the affiliates were going to be and the influencers. So you're able to kind of create the right materials for them. And it sounds like you've done a really good job of understanding how to incentivize that continual usage of the affiliate program. Something I think that we could do a better job, but I think you just gave me some really good ideas. and then so flipping back to the other thing that you said was really important, which was the video content. Did you guys hire a videographer to come in and start shooting stuff or were you like, let's double down on video education. Was the video for onboarding, was it for acquisition? Talk to me a little bit more about this stuff.

AT: 12:24
For sure. So we, one thing that we have focused on a lot as a company over the years is education because there's a learning curve to Webflow and we always, there always should be a learning curve to Webflow because our development process is to solve for more use cases, solve for more complex things. We're not trying to make the tool more complex. We're not focused on maybe a more traditional consumer software would want, which is the easiest and quickest way to get up. Like we want to, we want to just create more power, still make it usable, but we always knew that education was going to be invaluable to this, so we have an education team that creates these amazing videos. They're really well produced. They go through everything through the product, so we'd already invested in video from a education perspective, but what I was noticing, what the team was noticing is that a lot of people were getting to the education videos and kind of organic random ways and being like, well, what is Webflow? This is crazy. This looks awesome. Like they were seeing the visual is even though we weren't marketing to them and being really excited about it and excited about the quality of the video in the UI that we're showing in the use cases where we're solving. So he said, okay, why don't we start to test actually putting some marketing and some acquisition and some growth thoughts behind these to see if they actually turn it into a real channel. Since it seems to be resonating and this visual way of telling the story for a visual product does seems to be working. So literally the early stages were, were like testing anything out with a smaller company, you don't have a lot of budget. It's like what can we do with the resources we have right now? So it was literally starting to test, let's do some paid promotion of our education videos for in Youtube search, right?

AT: 14:09
Like we didn't want to jump right into prerolls because you know, these videos can be an hour long or like they're tutorials, right? So like they're not going to be good for like a preroll, but if we're using keyword and affinity audiences and they're searching for something that is, that is a problem that our education videos solving, we're paying to get that to show up in search results. And we started to see some really good behaviors and some good metrics there. And then, so we said, okay, maybe let's tweak. Let's take this this hour long tutorial video is doing really good, but it's not even really selling the benefits of Webflow. Just walking through it, how do we take this, turn it into 30 seconds and actually market Webflow is a tool for someone that probably never heard of us. And we used, the poor education team is making all these videos. They were, they were nice enough and Kudos goes to them to make us a marketing video, which is not in their wheelhouse, but they did an amazing job. They made this little 32 seconds marketing video that we used in Youtube preroll that basically it was just like talking about and introducing people to Webflow and that literally like the growth manager on my team, Tim made basically like rebuilt a site in Webflow and like screen captured it. Then we took that and education team made some really cool like cinema 4d, like animations around it, sending 4d like animations around it and turned it into this just like really cool video talking about Webflow. We put it in Youtube and it destroyed all of our other paid channels like lower customer acquisition costs than Facebook. Like we also use kind of active and designer. So like people that see it sign up, but then if they're like actually like using the product, I mean an on all levels like SEM and Facebook, it just completely knocked it out of the park and we were really surprised by that, because it was kind of a guest and now we're starting to build up our actual creative abilities in video marketing as well from a, from a creative side.

DA: 16:13
That's amazing. So it kind of was an accidental process finding Youtube as a channel, but I've heard so many times that Youtube is really ripe right now ready to go and you can get some really great, acquisition costs on there, where you guys searching for specific terms that people like your, your target audience was looking for when they were in pain or was it more just like how to do x, how to create a new website like generic long term keywords like that?

AT: 16:43
Yeah, yeah. We started testing the generic long term keywords at the start and then started to filter down more into competitor keywords or common issues they might be going into. And then now that we're starting to prove it out, we're going to be thinking about even more like what, instead of just the customer intent audiences, we can also think about using Youtube as a conversion channel and then also lower down the funnel. You know, people that have visited and not signed up, but we know what pages they've looked at, they go back into Youtube and let's give them something really specific about a certain problem or tool that we know can help them solve a problem and want to upgrade and use Webflow.

DA: 17:24
Investing in Youtube Retargeting. That's amazing. I would actually love to like link to that video if you guys have like a link to the video on your Youtube channel or something like that in our show notes. Just to show an example of that. I think so many of us included are looking for good examples of companies using Youtube to drive traffic and do it in a smart way that doesn't feel like, you know, too salesy or anything like, you know, like a good branded video that represents a brand gets. That's awesome. What other acquisition strategies have been good for you guys? Things that you've doubled down on and work that you didn't expect?

AT: 18:00
Yeah I think that like, an interesting one would be we started an education program to kind of test out because another thing that I'm trying to solve for is this, you know, this learning curve and trying to understand why Webflow matters. So we kind of just like whipped up a landing page that said like, Hey, like if you're, if you want to teach like web design concepts, you know, we can give you Webflow for free. Like we just want to test this out. And then we got a bunch of responses and it was basically is built with a sign up form. So they basically email us and tell them about themselves. And then we go and we talked to them and we validate because obviously we don't want it to be giving away plans for free, for nothing. But we want, we really genuinely thought that Webflow could have a really powerful education side. Because if you think about teaching web design and teaching code, if there's a tool that like visually abstracts things like it's actually really, it's built really well for the classroom. and then also if you can get students and people that are interested in design, interested in web development, familiar with your product, that's a really powerful tool down the road for acquisition and brand awareness and word of mouth growth. And what was surprising is we didn't, we purposely didn't market it because we were just testing it, but we got such a huge response.

AT: 19:25
Now we're trying to manage all of the educators and these are like in real schools, like real programs before, like teachers that are like, yeah, I love your tool. I've always wanted to teach it, but like, you know, it didn't have the budget to do it necessarily. So it's really cool that you guys are doing this and we're basically hooking them up with free team plans for their students. And I think it's one of those things that, you know, the program has seen a lot of success very early and we're going to think about, you know, how we would want to actually prophesies it and price it and actually use it as a marketing tool, but then further down the line, the benefits of a cohort of students who are going into the world going into the professional world already with a knowledge and understanding of Webflow really helps us. Right. It really helps telling that complex story. You already kind of like getting, getting ahead of the game there.

DA: 20:16
An idea could be like a certification program or something like that where they can go through your own education and they can say, Hey, I'm Webflow certified as something like that, you know, something that gives them some credibility. Almost like a, you know, their education status. How did it grow so fast? Was there just a lot of sharing of that page between educators? How did it, how did it get out so fast? You're just validating.

AT: 20:40
Yeah, I think that's what it was. I had an assumption. I was like, I think, I think a lot of like professors talk, talk amongst each others and that assumption was validated because they shared it out. Like I think we did one tweet, it was all we did. It's cool. It's been really exciting. It just, sometimes it shows that like if you do have a really strong product market fit, you can let things grow, you know, pretty quick. And now we're going to start to think about how we're going to market it in 2019.

DA: 21:14
That's incredible. And what about like what, what was it that made you guys think educators and go after that? So you had the product market fit, you had a good idea of what would be good there. What made you decide to go that niche first? That cohort first?

AT: 21:29
Yeah. You know, I think the idea had been kind of buzzing around, when I started. And then for me what I had seen the. I was at a company called Weebly before this. And one thing I noticed about Weebly is that we really had started in education program really early on. That was totally a different thing, but like, teachers had been using Weebly as a tool for blogging in classes and when I was at Weebly, we're doing a lot of research and surveys obviously on how customers had heard about Weebly and the amount of people that had heard about Weeby from education was just mind blowing, the amount of people that were already primed when they did get a brand touchpoint because of years and years of using it in schools. So that kind of showed me in a different part in my career, the value of exploring that. And so kind of kind of learn from previous experiences there and yeah.

DA: 22:34
That's amazing. That's awesome. That's really makes a lot of sense. And then when you guys look back, when you guys are looking back over, I guess since January, since you joined, what would you say has really been the biggest win in marketing? It sounds like you have a pretty dialed in a customer persona. Maybe it was an acquisition strategy. What can you say It was just been like high fives across the marketplace.

AT: 22:57
Sure. There's been actually, they've actually been two really clear things like one was Adobe Muse closed down, which is like a competitor for us. Like kind of a professional tool, designers building sites for clients. It had been around for a long time. So was really like entrenched like passionate user base. And you know, when it closed, we didn't know it was closing. The team didn't know. It just happened one morning and the entire team we're like all right, like how many times does like a massive competitor just like, and by closing down, I mean they made an announcement like they were going to be sunsetting the service, like how many times does this happen? Like not very often. Right. And like in a SaaS business where a competitor goes, I'm done. And so we're like okay, we got to be a part of this conversation.

AT: 23:42
So the entire team and like early in the morning just rallied and we were like when people were like, what? Like because the customers were like freaking out, like what am I going to do? Like where am I going to go? And we just jumped on into forum discussions, social discussions, we made a video talking about it. We jumped in with influencers who had previously done tutorials about Adobe Muse and talked to them about why Webflow is a really good alternative. And then they started making their tutorials and the entire team jumped in. We created marketing materials in like four hours, like a landing page. Like here are the, here are the benefits and features of Webflow versus Adobe Muse. And like it, it, we saw a giant spike, a giant spike in new customers like immediately. And then not only that, but the conversation very quickly went from Adobe Muse Users going, what do we do to, hey Webflow seems like a good solution. Oh what's Webflow? Oh, I haven't heard about Webflow. Well this guy is talking about it. Oh they have this marketing page right here. Oh, Webflow can do this, this and this. And like we completely helped shift the conversation to a way that they were choosing us where, you know, if we hadn't been agile enough and the team just jumped on this, like that conversation could have floated around for awhile and they took that, they could have talked about other things are explored, other stuff. And I'm sure people still did, but very early on we controlled the conversation we got in there and we did that because we really believed that we weren't trying to be manipulative, we believe that our tool was a really good replacement for the use cases they had on Adobe Muse. So it was also like very genuine. It wasn't like, oh, we're so glad. Like it close. We're like, guys, this sucks. Like here's why we can be the good solution for you. So that was awesome.

DA: 25:27
That is awesome. That is absolutely amazing. Yeah.

AT: 25:30
I was really pumped. The second one. That is an interesting one where, our ecommerce Beta teaser was a huge, a huge win. This isn't even launching the Beta. The Beta is going to be launching very soon, but earlier in the year we just did a teaser that we are going to be doing any commerce product and that we'd be doing an commerce Beta and we spent a ton of time. We had. We didn't really know what we want to do, like do we want make a crazy video or doing stuff and we're like let's just create like a really, really unique and exciting and kind of like groundbreaking landing page that really just shows like what you can do and what the experience would feel like. And even though it was literally just a teaser for a Beta, this page generated so much interest and like it won a bunch of web design like awards and but it made people really clamoring for the product, got a ton of interest in the community, galvanized around it and not only signed up to join the Beta. Then all of that interest just kind of spread and we saw another huge customer sign up up.

DA: 26:31
First of all, I would love to get a link to this page. Check it out and make sure we post it too. But what do you think was the winning elements on that page and how did you guys come to develop it in that way? Oftentimes you know, you're creating a landing page, a kind of looking at what the market is like, you know, seeing other landing pages and kind of building off that idea. It sounds like you've created something a little bit unique and innovative.

AT: 26:53
Yeah. So, you know, our, our, our brand design team is incredible. The lead Ryan's is really, really amazing. And the cool thing is that, you know, we dog food everything, our entire marketing site, everything we do on the marketing perspective is through Webflow, through our tool. So we're always thinking this is kind of the philosophy of the team is like how do we, how do we try and like break things, how do we try and make things that are like people going to see they're gonna smile and they're really creative and they're going to say you can't do that with Webflow. Like what is this? And so, yeah. And it's cool because, you know, to have the, you know, our, our brand design team and our brand designers, in many ways they are customers like that's our, that's our persona right there.

AT: 27:36
So it's like, what would you want to do for this? Like what would, what landing page would make you go, Whoa, I want to try this product. So that's kind of what we think of there. And we're also thinking of like, you know, we're, we also want to, the tough part about trying to be so creative and trying to break things is you also need to like show the values and the benefits and talk about your product and you need to tell a story. So we take a lot of time early in the prototyping and the concept stages, which is all we're doing all in our tool to really think through, even though it's crazy, what are we trying to tell someone and what, what do we want them to know? And we have to make sure that's clear above everything else. So we take time to do this stuff. But you know, the thing I've learned is that creating marketing assets that, that have value in a little bit of art, even sometimes a lot of art, it really pays off. It helps cut through the noise and really helps you stand out.

DA: 28:32
I think there's something to be said about, you know, marketing campaign, like you said, that strategically thought through creatively thought through. A lot of times they're just pushed out because it's a new initiative. It's we got to acquire new customers, we have to do x, y, and z. It sounds like you guys put a lot of time, first of all in the calendar, if you're not even at beta, you're putting a lot of time in the calendar and you're looking forward and preparing for these things and you're taking a lot of time to dissect, how can we do this differently? How can we do this creatively and interesting. And I think the attention to detail in the thought process and the innovations is what people really see. And I, and I love that. I think that's probably part of your culture and your brand there at, at Webflow.

AT: 29:12
Yeah, definitely. That's one of the things that was so awesome when I first joined was that that sense that push to do things that other people weren't doing. That's tough. That's tough to do sometimes in companies. So it's really refreshing and it's, it makes the work fun and fulfilling for everybody.

DA: 29:29
That's amazing and very inspiring. And where has the company grown since you've joined in January?

AT: 29:34
Yeah, so we've hit over a 1 million users, which is a really (inaudible). And our ARR is over 70 percent year over year in growing. So that's, that's the big one for us too as well.

DA: 29:50
No, that's amazing. And that's also, you know, you're, you're at least at this point now kind of bootstrapped or using revenue growth, which makes it even harder because you're not investing so much into acquisition and stuff like that. So that's absolutely amazing. And where do you see like looking forward at the end here, the end of Q4, where do you guys see your marketing changing or going into at the end of the year?

AT: 30:12
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well we're really gonna be focused on ecommerce. you know, we're planning to launch the Beta very soon and then be prepared for the actual product, you know, early 2019. So that's a whole new stream that's a whole new audience. It's a whole new way of interacting, you know, with Webflow suddenly you know, the platform is really going to be something where, you know, not just the designer is going to be living in, but also the business owner because they're going to be managing their products and setting up their taxes and doing all sorts of management pieces that before we have. We have a lot of management tools but not the level of like when you're, when you're making an ecommerce store. So that fundamental change in relationship with the product is, it's really interesting for us as a marketing team and also as forcing us in a good way to think really clearly about segmentation, both pre sign up and post signup because of all these use cases because of all these personas, we want people to really feel like we're giving them the right pathway through the product and it's not built for someone else, you know, that's what the benefit of having a product that can do a lot of things is like there's a lot of audiences.

AT: 31:25
But then the negative thing is like how do you speak to all those audiences in a way that's authentic and helpful. And so making sure that's a huge play is, is really big for us. And then video, we're, we're definitely doubling down on video because we've seen such crazy results as I talked about. Like we're really working hard, working more and kind of trying to build kind of like, a system of really good video producers and a network that we can work with. We have a studio, we actually have a video studio built into our office in San Francisco and I want to start to continue to open that up for producers and create more and more of our own video content as well.

DA: 32:06
I love that you guys are so tied into the creativity aspect of design and building all that stuff. So it's like the perfect, entryway for videographers and stuff to tell their stories and tell stories and showcase the software. So it sounds like a really exciting time. I think ecommerce sounds like an incredibly new opportunity for you guys, there's so much probably you're going to have to learn and adapt and go through. Again, it's, it's probably a totally a new adventure starting from zero again almost because you no longer dealing with just developers and designers and stuff like that and product managers. It's, I mean, you're dealing with ecom businesses which has all its own things to it. So good luck to you guys. I'm excited to see how it goes. You guys are, like I said, a great company that we follow and we love and I'm excited to see how you end 2018 and what you guys look like in 2019. Cool. Well let's jump over to our lightning round questions. Just five quick questions I have for you. You can answer with the first thought that comes to mind. Just some great advice for our listeners. You ready to get started?

AT: 33:06
Yeah, let's go.

DA: 33:06
Let's do it. Alright. What advice would you give for early stage SaaS companies starting marketing today?

AT: 33:12
Yeah, I'd say invest in campaigns that will take a long time to bear fruit but don't cost a lot of money up front. Like stuff like SEO, content marketing, your community. Those are things that you can nail like really early on with a small, passionate user base that will serve as like flywheels over and over again.

DA: 33:34
Amazing advice. What marketing skill do you think is vital for teams to improve and build on today?

AT: 33:41
Yeah, I mean I think it's creativity and art. Not to undercut them, but like people really hard skills are becoming table stakes, right? Like to be in marketing, you need to have like SEO skills if you're doing that or like analytic skills is really understand campaigns, but like what people. I really believe people are not that they're losing, they're not focusing enough on the creativity side and the artistic side because that's what can help you really stand out. So yeah.

DA: 34:08
That's great advice. I totally can and can really help build your brand. What about a best educational resource you'd recommend for marketing?

AT: 34:16
Oh yeah. I think the Reforge blog is awesome for growth, like growth strategies and we've had team members did the actual training and programs and they're amazing. For me to like Marketingland is just really, really useful to get a full high level view of all the kinds of crazy things that are happening in the marketing world.

DA: 34:35
I'll have to check that out. I actually have not been on there. I seen any of that. So that sounds amazing. What about a favorite marketing tool you can't live without?

AT: 34:43
Ooh, well Webflow obviously since we use it for everything, but that's... I'm sorry about that cheesy answer. Mixpanel like Mixpanel has been amazing for us. Like you know, we use it for acquisition, looking at channel performance but also for product use details like what, what pieces of the product people are using, interacting with use it for persona segmentation in app messaging and email marketing. It's crazy how much we use Mixpanel for our data.

DA: 35:13
We use Heapanalytics which I think is pretty similar, but that's such an important part being able to see all that data and usage data and what the customers are doing. It's an incredible, incredible tool. So great answer. All right. Last question for you. What about a brand business or team that you admire today?

AT: 35:29
Yeah, I think it would have to be Moz, formerly Seo Moz. I think for me their attitude and their culture to do like really, really good content, be really transparent as a brand focused on like quality above all else. Especially like in the SEO industry where things can get kind of dicey. They've always served like as this beacon of like being a good, not just brand but good people and doing really, really good things and their products are awesome. So.

DA: 36:01
Do you still like them even though Rand is no longer there?

AT: 36:05
It hurts me, but I still like it.

DA: 36:08
Awesome. Well really appreciate your time today. It was a ton of fun. You dropped a ton of great knowledge. I wrote down a bunch of notes here, things that we want to take a look at and probably implement inside of our own business, but really appreciate you being so transparent and open and sharing so much great knowledge with our audience and know really appreciate you.

AT: 36:26
For sure. Thank you so much. This was awesome and it was, it was fun to to be a part of it. So appreciate you inviting me.

DA: 36:33
No problem. And we will talk to you soon. Thanks again.

AT: 36:35
Okay. Thank you.

DA: 36:37
That was truly an amazing, amazing episode. I was really blown away by the quality of content that Adam and the Webflow team brought. Now on the show notes today we also have links to the original youtube video that Adam mentioned as well as the newest updated one. I looked at them both and they are incredible, so kudos to the work that their marketing and education teams are doing over there. He kind of mentioned that in the episode. I also have a link to that new ecommerce pre Beta page they put up and it is unbelievable, so if you are interested in what Webflow does, it gives you a full rundown of all the things that you can accomplish with their editor, with their pages, and it's pretty amazing. Really. Thank you to that whole team. We talked about a ton. I think you guys can implement a ton from this episode. (...)